2007年诺贝尔经济学奖得主Eric Maskin：碳税是减少温室气体排放的方便机制

　　8月26日，首届“ESG全球领导者峰会”隆重举行，主题为“聚焦ESG发展，共议低碳可持续新未来”。

　　本次峰会由新浪财经ESG频道牵头发起，联合中信出版集团共同主办。峰会汇聚60余位关心ESG发展的政、商、学界重磅嘉宾，就ESG投资、可持续发展、低碳转型等10个议题展开研讨。哈佛大学亚当斯大学讲席教授、2007年诺贝尔经济学奖得主 Eric Maskin出席并发表主题演讲。

　　2007年诺贝尔经济学奖得主 Eric Maskin表示，有一个很简单的减少温室气体排放的机制，就是碳税，即一个公司或者消费者排放了二氧化碳或者类似甲烷的温室气体，就需要缴纳碳税。但是碳税想要行之有效，就必须是一个全球性的政策。

　　Eric Maskin认为，目前世界正处于一个重要历史变革阶段——从高碳向低碳转型。科学家和技术人员，应该加强合作，充分探索绿色替代能源。比如，我们虽然可以获取太阳能，但是储存太阳能的蓄电池寿命还不够长。

　　Eric Maskin也提出，在当下全球因为疫情而衰退的经济形势下，提供临时救助体系以保护失业群体，是第一步；促进就业、推行补贴手段是第二步；同时政府也要在推动经济发展时，保证经济不过热。遏制通货膨胀。

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　　以下为演讲实录：

　　下午好，马斯金教授。非常感谢你愿意接受我们的采访。

　　Good afternoon， Professor Maskin． Thank you very much for joining us today．

　　很高兴能与你对话，请允许我先做个自我介绍。

　　It is a pleasure to be with you． Let me introduce myself．

　　我是埃里克·马斯金，哈佛大学经济与数学系教授，2007年诺贝尔经济学奖获得者。

　　I am Eric Maskin， professor of economics and mathenmatics at Harvard， and 2007 recipient of the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics．

　　我的研究专长是机制设计，就是在经济学和社会问题的解决中应用逆向博弈。

　　My specialty is mechanism design， which is reverse engineering as applied to economics and social problems．

　　也就是说，我们从想要获得的结果入手，反推我们需要怎样的机制或者是组织来实现那些结果。

　　That is we first start with the outcomes we would like to achieve， and then we work backwards to figure out what kinds of mechanisms or institutions will produce those outcomes．

　　从我们目前的经济形势来看，你认为实现经济复苏最重要的三个因素是什么？

　　Based on the current economic situation， what do you think are the three most important elements for maintaining economic recovery？

　　目前世界正在经历一场特殊的衰退。这场衰退是由一个威胁造成的，即新冠带来的威胁。

　　Well， this is a particularly strange recession that we， the world， has gone through． It was artificially created by a very dangerous threat， the COVID threat．

　　然而，为了应对这场衰退所需采取的手段和其他任何一场衰退都差不多。

　　However， the recipe for solving the recession is pretty much the same as with any major recession．

　　首先是要保护已经失业，或者是因为各类原因无法继续工作的人。

　　The first thing is to protect people who have lost their jobs or have been unable to work for one reason or another．

　　也就是要为提供临时救助体系而建立社会保障网络，这是第一步。

　　That is to provide a social safety net for temporary systems． So that is No.1．

　　第二步是保证人们可以尽快回去工作。

　　The second is to make sure that people get back to work as quickly as possible．

　　能帮助人们度过短暂的失业期是非常重要的，但是长期来说，同样重要的是让人们获得照顾自己的能力，而实现这点的方式就是让他们获得工作。

　　It’s fine to help people through a temporary period of unemployment， but in the long run， it’s important that they be able to take care of themselves， and the way that they can do that is through having jobs．

　　所以就需要促进就业，甚至可以采取补贴的手段，保证需要招人的用人单位可以和需要找工作的应聘者匹配上。

　　So facilitating， perhaps even subsidizing employments by making sure that employers who are looking for employees can be matched up with employees who are looking for jobs．

　　而第三个因素，就是要助推经济发展。宏观经济政策的一个基本原则，就是在经济发展势头强劲的时候，在一切都发展顺利的时候，政府需要保证经济没有过热。

　　And then the third element is to give the economy a helping hand， a basic principle of macroeconomic policy is that when the economy is booming， when things are doing fine， what the government should do is to make sure that the economy doesn’t overheat．

　　所以政府需要做的是，遏制通胀。而这可以通过紧缩性的货币政策来实现。

　　So what the government needs to do then is to ensure that inflation doesn’t take off． And this can be accomplished through tighter monetary policy．

　　然而当我们仍然处于衰退，或者我们刚从衰退中走出来，政府需要做的正相反。

　　But at a period where we are still in recession， or we are just coming out of the recession， the government needs to do just the opposite．

　　它需要保证流动性和钱的充分供应，政府需要给经济提供财政刺激以提振需求，从而刺激就业，实现充分就业。

　　And make sure that liquidity and money are easy to come by and also that the government provides a fiscal stimulus to the economy， so that demand is boosted， that will help increase the demand for employments and will lead back to full employment again．

　　去年9月，中国宣布要在2030年前实现碳达峰，2060年前实现碳中和。此后，各行各业都在努力朝这一目标迈进。

　　Last September， China announced to impose peak emissions before 2030 and carbon neutrality by 2060． Since then， all industries of societies have been acting for it．

　　对于这一领域的研究机构和经济学家，你有什么建议？

　　What advice would you like to provide for research institutions and economists in this process？

　　中国能计划在2030年，和2060年实现这些极具雄心的目标，是非常好的。

　　Well， it is very good that China has made these ambitious goals， first by 2030 and then by 2060．

　　但当然，为了减少碳排放和其他温室气体的排放，有很多的方式。

　　But of course there are many ways of reducing carbon emissions and other green house emissions can be accomplished．

　　比如停用老旧的技术，或者是使用清洁能源，如太阳能和风能来发电。

　　This can be done through shutting down old-fashioned technologies． It can be done by generating electricity through green technology such as solar power and wind power．

　　也可以通过扩大公共交通来实现，让人们少开车，或者是不要开汽油车。

　　It can be done by expanding public transportation so that people are not driving cars or they are not driving cars powered by petrol．

　　经济学家和研究机构可以研究的一个方向，是如何实现减排，比如如何将各种减排技术组合起来从而使其有效。

　　One thing that economists and research institutes should be studying is the most effective way of making these reductions， what combination of various carbon-reduction techniques is the most effective．

　　当然，这与我们所处的地域有很大关联。

　　Of course， that answer is going to depend on what geographic region what are talking about．

　　所以研究机构和经济学家需要考虑地域等因素。

　　And so， research institutes and economists should take into accounts factors like geography．

　　目前世界正处于一个重要历史变革，从高碳向低碳转型。

　　Right now， the world is in a very important historic period of transition， from high carbon to low-carbon and net-zero carbon．

　　科学家为了实现全球绿色发展应该如何加强合作？

　　How should scientists cooperate for the global green development？

　　应对气候变化，减少我们对高碳技术依赖的秘诀，就是让科学家与技术人员充分探索绿色替代能源。

　　The secrets to fighting climate change and to get us away from our dependence on carbon-based technology is for science and technology to more fully develop the green alternatives．

　　其中一个非常重要的替代能源就是太阳能。

　　One important alternative is solar power．

　　然而在太阳能储存上我们仍然有很多的挑战。我们可以获取太阳能，但是储存太阳能的蓄电池寿命还不够长。

　　We still have trouble with solar power storing energy． We can produce it， but the batteries for storing solar energy are not long-lived enough．

　　所以全球科学家和技术人员需要加强合作，来研究如何建造更好的太阳能电池。

　　And so it is very important that scientists and technologists collaborate around the world on finding how to build better solar batteries．

　　当科学不受限时才能充分发挥其潜力。所以科学家需要毫无阻碍地就科学和技术进行讨论，聆听彼此的想法。

　　Science is most successful when it is completely free． That is when scientists can discuss all matters of science and technology freely with one another so that they get to hear one another’s ideas．

　　因此我希望在未来，全球针对绿色能源的科学讨论可以不受任何限制。

　　And so I hope that in the coming years， there will be no barriers to scientific discussion， international science， scientific discussion of how to improve the delivery of green energy．  

　　如果我们想要解决气候变化问题，科学合作是必经之路。

　　If we are going to solve the climate change problem， scientific cooperation will be essential to that goal．

　　从机制设计理论的角度，你会建议采取怎样的激励机制来促使公司和消费者减少温室气体排放？

　　From the perspective of mechanism design theory， what would you suggest of incentive mechanisms to reduce green house gas emissions from both the companies and customers？

　　有一个很简单的减少温室气体排放的机制，就是碳税。

　　Well， it turns out that there is a very simple mechanism， which can be very effective in reducing green house gas emissions． And that is a carbon tax．

　　碳税的意思是，如果一个公司或者消费者排放了二氧化碳或者类似甲烷的温室气体到大气中，

　　The idea of a carbon tax is that if you as a company or a consumer emits carbon dixocide or other green house gases such as methane into the atmosphere，

　　或者砍伐了本来可以吸收二氧化碳的树木，从而将二氧化碳排放于大气中，就需要缴纳碳税。

　　or if you cut down trees which are storing carbon dioxide and thereby release the carbon dioxide into the atmosphere， you have to pay a corresponding tax．

　　所以缴纳的税和碳排放对世界造成的伤害的程度应该成正比。

　　And the amount of tax is calculated corresponding to the damage that you are doing to the world as a result of those emissions．

　　这背后是一个简单的经济学原理，就是为了阻止人们继续伤害坏境，人们必须得为他们给环境造成的伤害买单。

　　This is a very simple economic idea that to get people to stop damaging the environment， you make them pay for the damage that they do．

　　我知道中国已经准备在国内推行碳税，这是重要的一步。

　　Now China， I know， is introducing a domestic carbon tax and that is an important step．

　　但是如果碳税想要行之有效，就必须是一个全球性的政策，因为世界任何一个地方遭受的损失都会影响到其他地方。

　　But for the carbon tax to be truly effective， it is important that it be global， becaues the damage that is done anywhere in the world affects every other part of the world．

　　要记住二氧化碳是会流动的。

　　Remember carbon dioxide moves around．

　　因此全世界的所有或者多数国家都需要采纳有效的碳税。

　　It is essential that all or most countries in the world adopt an effective carbon tax．

　　这会有两个结果。首先是会刺激公司和消费者减少碳排放，同时会使得替代能源的价格更可承受。

　　And this will accomplish two things． First it will give companies and consumers the incentive to reduce their emissions． But it will also make the price of alternative forms of energy more affordable．

　　比如，如果你想要为使用石油来支付碳税，那么这就会使得太阳能和风能成为更为便宜的选项，因此使用太阳能和风能无需缴纳碳税。

　　If you have to pay a carbon tax for using oil for example， that is going to make solar power and wind power more affordable because there won’t be a carbon tax on solar power and wind power．

　　因此我认为碳税是一个很好的，简单的，但有效的手段。

　　So I think carbon taxes are great and simple， but very effective．

　　在这个过程中，新一代的经济学家应如何承担更多的责任？

　　In this process， how could younger generation of economists start to take more responsibilities？

　　毋庸置疑的是，年轻一代需要承受气候变化带来的更大损失。

　　Well of course， it’s younger generation who stand to lose the most from climate change．

　　气候变化有可能为世界带来毁灭性的打击。

　　Climate change has the potential for bringing about catastrophic damage to the world．

　　而正是年轻一代，尤其是年轻经济学家，要承受这种后果。

　　And it’s the young people， young economists in particular， who are going to have to suffer those consequences．

　　所以他们当然有动力要采取行动。

　　So they certainly have a strong incentive to do something about it．

　　我想敦促他们的是，多把气候变化和全球变暖纳入到研究议题之中。

　　What I would urge them to do is to consider climate change and global warming as part of their research agendas．

　　在气候变化和全球变暖的经济学领域，有很多重要并且有意思的问题。              

　　There are many important and interesting questions that arise on the economic side in the domain of climate change and global warming．

　　而这些问题，年轻的经济学家会觉得有挑战并且有意思。

　　These are questions which young economists I think would find challenging and interesting．

　　我不认为我应该告诉研究者该研究什么课题，那是由他们自己决定的。

　　I don’t believe in telling researchers what they should study． That should be up to them．

　　但是使他们意识到可以研究的有趣课题，是促使年轻经济学家更积极投入气候变化的一种方式。

　　But making them aware of the very interesting questions that they could study I think would be one way of getting young economists more involved in climate change．

　　大学能在其中起到的作用是什么？

　　And what kind of role shall the universities play？

　　大学是促进新知识的获取，并且传授新知识的地方。

　　Well universities are there to promote the acquisition of new knowledge and to teach that new knowledge．

　　我认为促进气候变化研究的一个方式，是鼓励大学多为想要在气候变化领域从事研究的经济学家及科学家提供资金支持。

　　I think that one way of encouraging more research in the climate change area would be for universities to provide funding， research funding for economists and for that matter， for scientists who want to do climate change research．

　　在很多国家，科学家或者经济学家是否能从事研究，与能否取得资金支持直接相关。

　　In many countries， whether or not a scientist can do his or her research， whether an economist can do his or her research， depends critically on what research funding can be obtained．

　　大学肯定不能是资金的唯一来源。

　　Universities， of course， can’t be the only source of funding．

　　必须要有外部资金支持。但大学的研究资金应该是资金来源中很重要的组成部分。

　　There has to be outside funding as well． But they can be an important ingredient in research funding picture．

　　我认为有责任感的大学都会希望这样做。

　　I think responsible universities will want to do that．

　　你能就目前绿色经济的发展情况再谈谈看法吗？

　　Would you please share a little more perspectives on the current development of green economy？ Thank you．

　　过去5年到10年的科技进步让我感到振奋。

　　I’ve been encouraged by the technological progress that has been made over the last five to ten years．

　　比如，从降低成本的角度，太阳能领域应用有很大的进步。

　　For example， solar energy has been improving considerably as far as cost goes．

　　使用太阳能的成本在减少。

　　The cost of solar energy is going down．

　　就像我刚提到的，我们仍然需要解决太阳能储存的问题。

　　I mentioned the storage problem that we still face with solar energy that still needs to be solved．

　　但是太阳能蓄电池确实是在改善。

　　But batteries are getting better and better．

　　在美国，多数汽车厂商都在考虑在未来十年全部转为生产电动汽车。

　　In the U.S．， for example， most automobile manufacturers are planning to switch over to all electric cars within a matter of about 10 years．

　　这些都让人感到振奋。

　　So I think that is very encouraging．

　　在中国，国家给绿色技术提供的支持，及准备引入碳税，都会促进人们少用高排放技术。

　　In China， the support being given to green technology and the proposed introduction of a carbon tax to induce people to move away from carbon-based technology is very encouraging．

　　所以这些都是很好的成果。但问题是，即使有了这些措施，排放到大气中的碳的总量仍然在增加。

　　So that much is good． But the problem is that even with all these measures， the amount of carbon being put into the atmosphere is still increasing．

　　所以我想说的是，我们应该为已有的成就感到骄傲。

　　So what I would say is， let’s be proud of the accomplishments that have been made．

　　但同时，我们必须更快的进步。因为只要碳排放总量在增加，我们就仍然处于将被气候灾难所侵袭的危险中。

　　But by all means， let’s make the pace of improvements even faster because as long as carbon emissions are increasing， we are in grave danger of a climate catastrophe．

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